Renvers/Travers

After riding Remy today, I really got thinking about this. We practiced the lateral movements as usual. On the circle, shoulder-in/counter shoulder-in, a little travers and a little renvers. I find the travers and renvers difficult on the circle, as much to do with spatial awareness as anything else. I tend to lose my place on the circle. I've started working around my mounting block as it helps keep me where I should be, and not drift off!
I find working the movements around the school on straight lines less confusing, awareness-wise. The fence gives me a good guide of where we are and also some support in the travers and renvers.
Thinking about the two movements, the travers is quite simple,it's quarters in from the track, but then you could say that renvers is the same identical movement just quarters out to the track. If you take the fence away though, I think this is where it gets tricky.
If you're going down the center line say,and keeping the shoulders on the centre line, moving the quarters to either side, you are doing travers left and right, and not renvers at all.
So, if I wanted to do renvers down the center line, I would keep the quarters on the centre line and move the shoulders.
It's how you initiate the movement that make them different. Renvers always starts by moving the shoulders, travers by moving the quarters. Once moving, I think they are the same, but for gymnasticising value, they are very different, and once you start to combine the lateral movements, how you initiate them is very important, interchanging moving the shoulders and quarters.
With Remy today, I asked for renvers from shoulder-in by changing the flexion, I know it's early days for us and we're only getting a few steps at a time, but that's how I see it and it seems to make sense.